Book of Vile Darkness (minor artifact) - only usable by evil divine spellcaster - after 1 week of study, gain +1 WIS (inherent bonus) and gain +1 experience level in any class *********************************************** Oriana said... So I notice Barid, Dolora, Oriana, and Shodan are all potential candidates who could benefit from the Book of Vile Darkness. Surely the DM's not trying to curry strife within the party is he? As mentioned in the above post regarding the Book of Vile Darkness. Is the intent of the level gain to be an increase in a class that grants divine spell casting? Or can it be used to gain a level in any class? Oriana would be willing to relinquish her claim to the Book of Vile Darkness in exchange for the other 3 supporting her claim to the Gauntlets of Destruction. The other 3 can then duke it out amongst themselves, or sweeten the pot to encourage (i.e. bribe) Oriana, Morticia and/or Tormod to support their claim to the Book of Vile Darkness over the other two. Barid, I am fairly sure Lord Bly would be willing to clear the remainder of your debt should you present him with the Book of Vile Darkness as compensation. DM said... Although it states that the book is the meat and drink of divine spellcasters, it does not specify that the level gained needs taken in that specific class. Oriana said... Of course if no one else is going to lay a claim to the Book of Vile Darkness, than Oriana will happily take custody of it, and use it... Dolora said... Is the book of vile darkness a one shot only? Can it be passed around and read by all who are cable? If not, then Dolora would like it DM said... 1 shot deal. Oriana said... Will Dolora support Oriana having the Gauntlets of Destruction? If so, Oriana will not stand in the way of her claim to the Book of Vile Darkness. Dolora said... Dolora has no real use for the Gauntlets, so yes she will support Oriana but in return she would like Oriana's Support, not just neutrality, to claim the Book. Tormod said... What is the monetary value (gp) of the Book of Vile darkness? I'd personally like the idea of a game of chance to get the book of vile Darkness - because everyone could benefit from it. Then whoever gets it, they would have to compensate the others with monetary value. Dolora said... The Book is a minor artifact- in forgotten Realms it says Minor artifacts are not necessarily unique items, but rather magic items that no longer can be made by common mortal means. Such items have no established market price. of course we could always try and sell it, but must be careful as no good or neutral aligned would want it and other evils would lie, cheat and kill for it. Oriana said... I think we would have to be careful about "selling" it, someone who has enough money to pay the true price of a minor artifact is likely powerful enough to just take it, and its not like we can complain to the City Watch or the Lords of Waterdeep that someone has stolen our Book of Vile Darkness and we want it back. I think we would be lucky not to be arrested for having such an "evil" artifact in our possession. Since we are unlikely to get another chance of possessing a Book of Vile Darkness, I think it should be used. Also, since there is no market value, putting a price on it is difficult. As to who should get it, not sure I like the game of chance to determine who gets it. As an alternative, Oriana will make an offer. She gets the Book of Vile Darkness, but will offer the others 200 gp from her share of the loot as compensation. So Tormod would get 5,578 gp Everyone else would get 5,338 gp And Oriana would get 4,138 gp plus the Book of Vile Darkness. Is this acceptable, or are others who want the book willing to make a better offer? Oriana said... Note that Oriana would give up her claim to and offer for the Book of Vile Darkness entirely in exchange for getting the Gauntlets of Destruction. As for Dolora's response, should Dolora wish for Oriana to support her claim over the others for the book, what sort of enticement/compensation (bribes) would she be willing to offer to persuade me to support her case? And of course, others can make their own offers to encourage me to support their case for the book instead. Tormod said... Does anyone have the time to try to figure out an approximate value? My guess would be the equivalent cost of a limited wish or wish spell? Otherwise there is more than likely to be more blood-shed over this item. Oriana said... None of us could afford a "minor artifact", and I think advertising that we have one for sale would be even more dangerous, as we would be harassed by powerful evil divine spell casters who would simply take it from our dead bodies, or we would be harassed by a constant flow of goody-goody two show paladin types intent on destroying it and all those associated with it. As for bloodshed between us, hopefully not, I think we can come to a rationale understanding (right Shodan?). Oriana, has made her position clear. If she can have the Gauntlets of Destruction, she will not lay claim to the book. Since Dolora, Shodan and Barid are the only ones who could use it, Oriana will leave it up to them to decide who gets to use the book. Since Morticia and Tormod can't use the book, they are both free to tell the other 3 what is their price for giving up their share of the book's value, and see if the others will agree. Or what their price would be to support a specific person. But having said that, should Dolora, Shodan or Barid wish to have a stronger claim to the book, Oriana's vote would be for sale. However, if the others dispute her claim to the gauntlets, then Oriana will renew her claim on the Book of Vile Darkness, and is currently offering the others 200 gp from her share of the loot as compensation. So Tormod would get 5,578 gp Everyone else would get 5,338 gp And Oriana would get 4,138 gp plus the Book of Vile Darkness. Unless their are better offers out there? Oriana said... My apologies, it is possible for Morticia or Tormod to take advantage of the Book of Vile Darkness as well. They would have to take a level in a class that grants divine casting of spells (cleric, druid, favoured soul, etc...), then could use it to gain whatever class level they wished. So in essence, you are getting a free divine class level. Oriana said... So Morticia or Tormod, Oriana's vote can go in your favour for a reasonable sum... DM said... Evil Master's hands rub together! Mwuhahahaha!! DM said... You wouldn't be obligated to use right away also. You could wait until level 10 or so (if you live that long) to use when it takes more xp and longer to level. This is also conditional on you being able to keep it that long!! The bigger risk, the bigger the reward. Dolora said... here is Dolora's argument on why she should be allowed the book. Should one do a power estimate of the group, one would find Dolora way at the bottom (one of her favourite positions) while the others are packed close together at the top. Should Dolora take the book, she would gain another sorcerer class, making her a level 4 sorcerer enabling her ...are you ready for this?... to cast ONE second level spell. Whoopie! This would still keep her at the bottom of the pack in terms of power. Now should someone else take the book, say Morticia or Tormod,to take a divine spell casting class this would Really bump up their power level. Now should Oriana or Shodan take the book to take ANY class, this would Really Really bump up their power level.So the question for the rest of you is, do I really want anyone else other than fluff-head Dolora to gain more power and be the most powerful in the group? Your evil nature would dictate otherwise, I would think. If I cannot have it then my closest competitor will not either is the thought running through your minds. Dolora would be the safest to give it too because then the power structure would not change.As for Baird, yes he would want it to remove the geas Are the rest of you happy that it be given to Lord Bly? Oriana, do you and lord Bly want to relinquish your geas slave so easily? for a mere one level increase? I would think not. And if the purpose is to keep the book out of the group's hand. then well how do you all feel about this. So for all these reasons, plus 300gp for e ach of you ( as well as supporting Oriana in the claiming of the Gaunlets) , Dolora asks for your support in the claiming of the book. Dolora said... And this gets rid of the 'Let's wait till higher levels to do this' Also if we too wait too long then other forces would be a) destroy the book b) steal the book either way, best Dolora use it all up now Dolora said... If whoever agrees with Dolora to get the book gets one night free of incredible sex as a bonus to the 300 gp Oriana said... So far Dolora is offering Oriana the best terms so far... Oriana said... Other people can still make claims to other items as part of their support: Tormod said... Did we find the required Jewel? If the prize for that is 30000 gp, divided by 6 = 5000gp each. Hypothetically, if Oriana gets the gauntlets (6000gp +/-), she should have to give up most of her share of the gold to compensate the others in the group. This would also go for the person who gets the book. This process should also be used for people who get items that we "find" while adventuring. This will make calculating the share of coins more complicated, but I feel that without doing this, someone will end up with a blade between their ribs. With my current progression, I will not pick-up any divine casting, so I will not compete for the book. I have my eye on one of the Black Dragon Fang components and willing to give up 300gp of my share for it. I do like platinum coins...they are could make me more amiable to voting for you. Dolora said... So Interesting-so if I understand you correctly, whoever takes what items takes the cost of the item from their share and that cost goes back into the main pool to be divided up by the rest of the group? So if the cloak of resistance +1 is taken, then that person puts 1000gp back from their share, so that in essence we are buying the items from the loot instead of a magic shop? Is this what you mean? Tormod said... Yes, we are buying from the found goods. My reasoning is that if say Oriana gets the gauntlets, plus her share, she'd have gotten the equivalent of 11000gp, so all the others are at a disadvantage. 9:38 pm Dolora said... That is actually an interesting idea- the only time that I see it not working is if the monetary loot does not cover the item cost. suppose the loot is 600 gp and a cloak of resistance +1 1000 gp. now we each get 100 gp but whoever gets the cloak has to put in 900 gp. But say that person does not have the money. So what happens to the cloak? Is the cost deferred to the next loot? pay 100 now and you owe 900 to the group? Oriana said... I think as a general rule, coins should be divided evenly, and magic items distributed to those who can use them. Sometimes, someone would get a powerful item over the others, but next time, someone else will get a powerful item, so it evens out in the long run. If you have to “buy” items from the pot, we run the risk of losing out in the end, since what will most likely happen, is that for the more powerful (expensive) magic, the coins will not cover the cost, and the person would owe a significant amount. So since most of us are risk adverse to debt, what will likely happen is that all the cheap magic will be handed out, but all the powerful magic will be sold at half price, and then divided by 6. This smaller sum will not enable the members of the group to buy magic items as powerful as the item we just sold, and we as a group will be less powerful than our opponents. Instead of having one item worth 12,000 gp, we would have 6 items worth 1,000 gp each. And what happens when we get a priceless minor artifact, like the Book of Vile Darkness? Does the person who gets that item have to repay a “priceless” amount back to the group for all eternity? Having said that, if there are items that no one can use, than yes, definitely we should sell them and divide the loot, regardless of how powerful they are. However, we do come to the interesting case of when there is a powerful item that more than one person wants and can use. In this situation, we can do as we are doing now, and try to convince other members of the team that you should have the item, I would say, by at least a majority vote (4/6). So for the Book of Vile Darkness: Dolara has said she is willing to give 300 gp to each of the other characters for it, with the condition that Oriana would also be entitled to the Gauntlets of Destruction. Oriana is willing to give her vote for that amount, but if another character wants it and willing to offer more for Oriana’s vote, than she is willing to listen to these proposals. Tormod seems to be saying that he will only accept (5,138 gp/5 = 1,027 gp and 6 sp) as the price for his vote. So if Dolara currently has 2 votes (her own and Oriana’s), then she only needs to convince 2 other people to get a majority. If they are cheaper than what Tormod is asking for, she may need to only pay those 3 people, and it would be up to her if she gives the other 2 the same amount to smooth over hurt feelings, or not pay them at all as punishment for not supporting her claim (so Tormod, you may want to accept the offer that the majority are supporting instead of holding out for more). For the Gauntlets of Destruction: Oriana has staked a claim to this item. Her current offer is that if no one else makes a claim to them, than she will not compete for the Book of Vile Darkness. So if you want the Book and Oriana’s vote, your offer has to include the condition that Oriana gets the gauntlets. So if others accept your offer for the book, it includes giving Oriana the gauntlets. So far, Dolora has agreed to these terms. Is anyone else making a claim to the gauntlets? Tormod? If so, make an offer… Oriana will consider making a counter-offer, or might not, and you may be stuck with honoring your offer. However, if Oriana has to compete for the gauntlets, then she will also be renewing her claim on the Book of Vile Darkness, unless whoever wants the Book can convince whoever is making a claim to the Gauntlets to back down... DM said... "So since most of us are risk averse to debt" Oh this made me lol! Oriana said... I'm sure Barid will agree with that now... Tormod said... Ok, I have a counter proposal; all magic items are bought from the pot at half the cost (the amount you would get if you sold it - someone sold an nice item from the pot in a previous life), except for powerful items (gaunlets and book)which would be bought for half of your share of the pot or half the value of the item, whichever is less; except for priceless items. So if this current situation with Oriana as an example, 5000gp share divided by 2, then by 5 = 500gp and she gets the gauntlets. As for how to figure out who gets the book (and future artifacts), I think for those who are in competition for it have a contest of some sort or game of chance to determine the winner. I personally can't use the book and the gauntlets are not my style - I have other magic items I would like to purchase. Dolora said... Are you saying the gauntlets would cost 2500 gp, half the loot share and the cloak of resistance +1 would cost 500 gp? And if more than one person want the item, they pay the cost, half the loot share or half the item cost whichever is less but have to somehow convince the others that they should be the one to get it? Tormod said... So for the "mundane magic items" you pay half the value of the item in to the pot, which is divied amoung the other 5 members. For powerful items, you pay half the value of the item or half of your share of the pot, which ever is less into the pot to be divided amoung the 5 other members. If more than one person wants an item, you either increase what you are willing to put into the pot for the item or we have some sort of contest or game of chance to see who gets the item. As for an example, I would like one of the black dragon componants to make a light weapon; I put 150gp into the pot. If someone else wants it, I can increase what I am willing pay for it or duke it out or roll the dice. Oriana said... Total aside: for the dragonfang components, instead of making a light weapon, the group could make 50 light crossbow bolts for 300 gp which would be of masterwork quality (+1 to hit) and which would do +1 acid damage. I seem to recall that several people use light crossbows, so maybe give everybody who has one 10 bolts each. Oriana has a sling which adds a STR bonus, so she would not need any bolts. Dolora said... Ok but one has to agree on what is powerful and what is mundane-so it is monetary value alone and if so what is the cutoff or is it length of usage or a mix and other factors? for example a +1 long sword 2315 gp and an oil of greater magic weapon +4 2400 gp. Both almost the same price except the sword can be used over and over and even added onto whereas the oil is a one shot deal. So by your system, are they considered mundane, powerful or what? In other words, do I use half my loot share for either or half the item price for either? Oriana said... So before we divide the loot up and get 5,138 gp each, did we want to subtract the 300 gp cost for black dragonfang light crossbow bolts? Also, do we want to subtract the cost of another Wand of Cure Light Wounds (50 charges) for 750 gp or 675 gp if we get one from the Red Wizards? I think we are really, really going to need one... Then divide the loot 6 ways? If so, then we would each get instead... Coins = 29,518 gp Sold Items = 1,310 gp Total = 30,828 gp - 300 gp for bolts - 675 gp for wand New Total = 29,853 gp /6 = 4,975 gp and 5 sp. Oriana said... If we just do the Wand, but no bolts than everyone's share is 30,153 gp/6 = 5,025 gp and 5 sp each Let me know if people want either of these options. Oriana said... So going by Dolora's example. No one is over going to buy an expensive 1-shot item like that from their part of the loot (at least Oriana is unlikely too, ring of wishes being the only exception maybe), but 1-shot items are something that's nice to have if handed out. Again, I think purchasing all items from the loot I think would weaken us in the long run, as powerful items and funky items would wind up getting sold, and only cheaper magic is being bought in its place. As I mentioned previously, we do come to the interesting case of when there is a powerful item that more than one person wants and can use. In this situation, we can do as we are doing now, and try to convince other members of the team that you should have the item, I would say, by at least a majority vote (4/6). This convincing could be using money, but it could also be other things too (promises, threats, extortion, etc... this is the L-I-V-E campaign after all BWAHAHAHAHA! Dolora said... I think it is interesting that we are having this discussion only in the EVIL campaign. In all the other campaigns we go along for what is best for the group and division of the spoils is much more harmonious. it seems as if because our PCs are evil that we are having these entanglements . I don't know what system could be used to make the loot allotment fairer in that we do not want to see another PC become overpowered relative to the rest without making things overly complicated. So perhaps Oriana's way would work the best-- we should try it , at least in this situation, to see how well it works, especially since this would be a good test, what with the Book the gauntlets and the 'lesser' items all in the pool. as for the black dragon fang material, dolora is in favor of Tormod getting his light weapon and making bolts from whatever is left over to be distributed even even we only end up with a few bolts each. Oriana said... There is still some enlightened self interest in EVIL that would contribute to the group. For example the Wand of Cure Light Wounds. WE NEED ONE. Doesn't matter who holds/carries it, it is there to heal the group, so we can recover faster and face the next set of enemies at full health. So Oriana is ok with contributing funds to pay for one. Likewise with the black dragonfang light crossbow bolts, Oriana is ok with this being a group purchase, as Morticia proved, its useful to have the spell casters still be able to contribute to combat after they have used up their limited spell capacity in the morning, but we still have the rest of the day to explore. Likewise with the Gauntlets of Destruction. Since you get 3 attacks/day where your weapon can bypass DR associated with adamantium, Oriana thinks the next time we are faced with a GOLEM, the group would very much regret having sold this item and the 500 gp they would each have gotten (assuming we can't reach an agreement as to who gets to keep it in the group). The key to deciding who gets to keep the various magic items is to ask yourself, will it help me survive the next adventure if that person has it... Dolora said... I tend to agree so Dolora's argument for the book still stands as well support Oriana for the gauntlets, support Tormod for the dragon fang light weapon and 300gp to each of you. ========================================= Morticia said... As I relax here listening to the theme from Once Upon A Time In The West, which is incidentally also the theme for Knut Whacamole, one of the famous Whacamole quintuplets, I am contemplating Morticia’s reaction to the jabbering over the pile of trinkets we have recently accumulated. Most of all she despairs that this group of minor back-alley hagglers and money changers will never become the high caliber force for EVIL that she needs. The hagglers are getting a little ahead of things. As I recall before we beat the Bug Bears, Barid and Morticia were about the eliminate Shodan; oh yeah remember that! So what happens next? Will Barid and Morticia continue the attack? Will Shodan take advantage of the fact that Morticia has no spells left and attack her. Shodan’s last words were “I don’t care if you kill me! I don’t care if you kill me!”. Does he really want the release from his torments that cold steel can provide? This interaction will require some further role-play. I also know of a least two other “elephants in the room” that require role-play. So we should also decide the division of loot via face-to-face role play. At that time Morticia will instruct you on how it will be divided.